Welcome to Return on Design, the podcast where beauty meets strategy and interiors become assets that perform. I’m your host, Rachel Niederhofer, designer, investor and builder of high impact spaces that deliver real results. Alongside my husband, I run both a design firm and a real estate investment company, where I live at the intersection of creativity and ROI every day. Each week, I’ll be unpacking what most people overlook: how strategic design decisions can grow your investment, elevate your lifestyle and unlock the full potential of your property.
Most investors and homeowners obsess over finishes, budgets, and timelines. The real driver of your return is less visible: your network. Your network is your net worth, because the trade professionals you can call, trust, and rely on determine what you pay, how smoothly a project runs, and what you walk away with when it’s done.
A strong network does not happen by accident. It gets built deliberately, one project and one relationship at a time, and it is built for the long run rather than for a single job.
A Rolodex of trade professionals you can call and ask real questions of shapes how much you should be paying for a project, how much you should be investing in it, and what result you should expect when it’s finished. That is a different thing than a list of phone numbers you have used once. Building that list is the same discipline behind Return on Design: the plan pays off before the work even starts.
Your network should not just be for one-off projects.
Return on Design, Episode 11
Relying on one tile guy, one framer, or one painter leaves you stuck the moment that person is busy on someone else’s job. Having multiple trusted people in each trade means you can get things done on your schedule, not on everyone else’s. That is the practical meaning behind your network is your net worth: the relationships compound, the one-off calls don’t.
Vetting a tradesperson starts with knowing enough about the trade yourself to tell whether they actually know what they’re talking about. Someone who leads with confidence can sound convincing even when they don’t know the work, and the only defense against that is understanding the trade well enough to ask the right questions.
Building a network from scratch in a new market takes more time upfront, not because vetting itself is slower, but because the local references and word of mouth that already exist in a familiar market haven’t been built yet. Investors and designers who take on projects outside their home market deal with this directly, and the fix is the same conversation, just more of it, earlier.
Word of mouth still produces the best relationships, but it is not the only source. The people working the counter at supply stores and tile shops see who shows up regularly and pays their bills, which makes them a genuinely useful reference. Driving to an active job site and asking a tradesperson a direct question about their work is another way in, and a five minute conversation on-site can turn into a long-term relationship.
Running multiple bids at the same time works better than collecting them one at a time. Calling two painters to meet at the same property at the same time means the scope gets explained once, the same questions get answered the same way for both of them, and everyone knows there is competition for the job.
Price is only part of the negotiation. Knowing whether a quote reflects retail pricing or trade pricing, and being clear that you intend to be a repeat trade customer rather than a one-time residential client, changes the number you’re given. That only works if you’ve put in the time to actually understand what the work should cost.
Construction gets messy in the middle of almost every project. How a disagreement or a correction gets handled in that middle stretch matters more than how clean the start was. Keeping a hard conversation about a missed expectation professional instead of personal is what keeps a relationship intact on the other side of it.
Not every tradesperson is right for every job, and removing someone from a project because the fit isn’t working does not have to end the relationship permanently. Someone who struggled on one job can prove themselves on the next one, and that flexibility is part of what keeps a network useful instead of static.
Relying on too small a group of people, or leaning on a single contractor to manage everything, is usually what limits how much an investor can scale. A wider, well-maintained network, plus at least one mentor who has already done what you’re trying to do, is what lets a project load actually grow, the same way how to build a strong team covers the project side of this.
So I might call two painters and they’re both going to meet me at the same time. We’re going to walk through the full property at the same time. So I’m only giving a directive of what the scope of work is going to be once. And I’m also setting the tone that like, I have options and you better bring your best price to me. That’s another great way we’ve had success.
Well, that also though brings back that clarity and that the same message gets delivered to more than one person, exactly the same or the same questions get answered the exact same way.
Welcome to Return on Design, the podcast where beauty meets strategy and interiors become assets that perform. I’m your host, Rachel Niederhofer, designer, investor and builder of high impact spaces that deliver real results. Alongside my husband, I run both a design firm and a real estate investment company where I live at the intersection of creativity and ROI every day. Each week, I’ll be unpacking what most people overlook. How strategic design decisions can grow your investment, elevate your lifestyle and unlock the full potential of your property. You’ll get real tools, proven strategies and unfiltered conversations with industry experts who are doing it right. So if you’re ready to invest with purpose and leverage design as a powerful tool, this podcast is for you. So when it comes to real estate and design, your network is essential to your success. So today, if you are an investor, you’re going to want to listen to this episode. We are going to break down how your network can equal your net worth, especially when you’re looking to get the maximum ROI on your project.
Yeah. Having the right people on your team, the right tradesmen to work with can make or break your project, make or break your return on that design. Because the right guys in there can definitely make something shine, but the wrong ones can definitely cost you a whole lot more. And I know I’ve made that mistake once or twice.
And your network should not just be for one-off projects. We’re talking, we want to break down how to build longevity in your relationships. You can do lots of projects together.
But also the guy that when you’re in a bind, you know who you know somebody you can call that can help you out, whether they can actually come fix it for you or they can recommend somebody who can help you. Yes.
Having a Rolodex of trade professionals you can call and pick their brain about specific topics. That their experts in is going to help you in all aspects of your business. It’s going to help you determine how much you should be paying for your projects, how much you should be investing in your projects and how much you should be expecting when you’re done. Let’s dive in. So everyone always wants to talk about ROI, but most people are overlooking where ROI really comes from when it comes to flipping houses, whether it’s single family or multi-family, it really doesn’t matter.
It kind of comes from who you have like you said in that Rolodex. Yeah. When you know who to call, you have an issue, you’ve got trusted people you can call, you have multiple people because you can’t rely on one tile guy all the time because he’s got other jobs too. He may be on a current job for you now and you’re going to pull him off of this one to go step on to this one and try and finish it.
No, definitely if you want to scale to you’ve got to have, I don’t want to say options, but options people you can call to get things done on your schedule, not on everyone else’s.
Yeah, exactly. We’ve had several, several guys that we’ve been able to call throughout the years of, Hey, I need to get this done. Can you help me or can you recommend somebody? You know, our tall guys have done that several times, but we’ve also got, you know, some of those contractors where it’s like, Hey, I have got to get this done this weekend. Can you help and they’ve stepped up and really jumped in and and finished a trim out or finish those last little details that really are going to set that part of this project off.
Yeah, some of our best kept trade secrets when it comes to people are those who are really eager to grow. A lot of them are often already working for other people in different capacities, but they just want more, they want more opportunity and they’re usually hungry and available when we call like, Hey, got this little project needs some help and they’re pretty eager to jump in.
I would say they’re also the ones that pay attention to the little details. Yeah. And have shown like their their alignment in the way they want to conduct themselves in their business and what they the service they provide isn’t very much alignment with the way that we expect and what we want to provide for our clients.
Yeah, which is actually a beautiful segue into the next point for today’s discussion, which is how do we actually vet these people? How do we build this network of trades? Experts that help us succeed and really grow with us through the longevity of multiple projects over time.
Yeah, I mean, we’ve so many of our contacts have come through word of mouth, not the not the Google search or, you know, want to go back in time, go to the yellow pages, you know,
Well, and now it’s social media social media.
Come on, babe, social. I mean, it’s given them the 21st century, I guess, but you know, I’m old school.
Yeah, not to say we haven’t found some good partners on social platforms, but by far the bulk of good, reputable people,
Some of our best relationships have come from the word of mouth of people that we know and we trust and then have built relationships with.
Yeah, back to that point of finding the good people word of mouth is always a good thing. But what about when you’re new to an area as an investor or even a designer? I mean, we’ve experienced this firsthand. We’re taking on remote projects and have to kind of build up a whole new network of trades people to work with.
That can be a little bit more time consuming and building some of that, but I think I
Don’t I wouldn’t agree with the time consuming aspects because you’re still vetting people. So when you’re going into a new territory and you’re having to start fresh from the start, how to build the right team. In my experience personally, it has been knowing enough about the trade yourself to be able to vet real time because a lot of people will lead with the notion that they know all the things. And if you know nothing, you’ll fall for it every time, but if you have educated yourself along the way that you can actually have a conversation with an expert in that level of trade and have enough intellect about the topic that you can start to kind of weed out. Uh, I don’t know if this this
Joke really knows what he’s talking about. Yeah. This guy’s really know and really knows what he’s talking about. Yeah.
So it can require a little more time, but anytime you’re building new relationships, whether you’re local or not, you have to really have that same approach and all of it’s going to take time.
Yeah, I guess I was trying to say it takes a little bit more time or it can be a little bit more time consuming in that when you’re in your local market and you have people, you have references people that you know, there’s a level of vetting that’s already kind of happened in that process. But when you’re going into a new area, you have to do a little bit more of the vetting on your own upfront and have a little bit more conversation, but having clear, clear conversation and to your point, knowing the subject matter that you’re talking about that you can speak with these experts.
And as a professional, like a professional investor or even a designer being networks with in your industry is key because we’ve got investor friends that don’t live where we live and they might be in a different metropolitan area or even a different state and having people you can reach out to and get those same word of mouth referrals is part of building that network.
As you have these conversations and because you also understand part of the trade itself, you’re able to sit there and you’re honing your own skills so that you can tell is this guy going to be worth the investment to continue working with or is he not and all you’re doing is saving yourself in the long run time and effort and your investment your money.
And I would add to that with, you know, back to our Rolodex concept of things happen, whether it’s good or bad, you know, if something comes up and your flooring guy can’t finish, you need to have somebody else you can call to come in and take over. We even have really good relationships with people who they will give us a referral for their position. Like, oh, he had to go out of town or the project ran late. Okay. Who do you recommend finish the job that we’ve hired you to do and they’ll actually give us referrals that way as well.
Yeah. And remember to that just because you didn’t, you know, they’re you’re going to have contractors or you’re going to have people that you work with tradesmen that, you know, it didn’t work on this job that they got this one. But, you know, if if they were somebody you found was worth having around and say they may be the right fit for the next job because again, this guy may be tied up and you need to you need the next one to help come in and keep projects moving and working or yeah, something happened and I need somebody that come in and finish for me. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
What about the investor who is like brand new, brand new to the scene and they don’t really have a network of people yet. What, what would you say, Justin?
Yeah, trying to build some of those networks. I mean, one of the one industry year one one area that I’d say to go to is go to go to the supply stores go to where, you know, you guys are getting the supplies. You’re tired. Go go to the tile shops. Those the guys working at the tile shop selling the tile and the mortars and, you know, all the things for that, they’re actually a really good reference for who is in there regularly consistent and who are some of the, you know, it’s easy to find some of the big names of builders and things like that. And hey, who are some of the guys that may be working? Oh, you do work for them. I know that name. I see them a lot that, you know,
And even driving as a new investor, you can drive to an area of your town or whatever place you’re working in and go to where they’re actually building.
I found a few guys that, you know, driving around pull up on a job site. Hey, got a question? You know, I’m working on this. I’m trying to I’m kind of trying to figure this out. Oh, yeah. This you can do it, you know, and get into a conversation with them for five minutes.
Yeah, you’re like, I need a framer. They’re framing houses over here on block A.
Yeah. Go over there. Yeah, I’ve had the conversation. It’s like, Hey, I’m trying to figure this out. And oh, yeah, if you did this and this, would it be something you think you’d be willing or interested in maybe helping me out with and have found some great guys doing it that way? Yeah, because I’m not the framer. I’m not the brick guy, but I know enough and this guy can sit here and have a conversation with me, tell me specifically. And oh, yeah, we can help that. You can do that. You know, that’s some great guys.
Yeah, definitely. You got to put yourself out there just like any beginning business and just start networking. It’s a great way to do it.
As you start to find people, you find these building a network, you know, one of the things that’s inevitably going to come up is how do you negotiate each job? You know, everybody wants to focus strictly on price, but there it’s more than just the dollars. You know, sometimes there’s the hidden values that you don’t see just by the number. And that’s where clarity and conversation comes in the play, I think. Yes.
Yeah. Knowing, you know, educating yourself enough to have intellectual conversations about it. And another thing I love to do, especially when going into new territories is have multiple bids happening at the same time. So I might, you know, call two painters and they’re both going to meet me at the same time. We’re going to walk through the full property at the same time. So I’m only giving a directive of what the scope of work is going to be once and I’m also setting the tone that like I have options and you better bring your best price to me. That’s another great way. We’ve had success.
Well, that also though brings back that clarity in that the same message gets delivered to more than one person exactly the same or the same questions get answered the exact same way.
And I know as a woman in this space, it has helped me set the tone early on of the project of making sure they understand you’re going to have to be taking direction from me. And are you okay with that? Can you handle it? Can you keep up? Yeah. Can you keep up? And yes, I know what I’m talking about. So pay attention and get your numbers ready. Yeah. Cause I’m going to want to see him at the end. Exactly. True stories. You know, just to add to that too with negotiations knowing enough about it, right? Going back to the whole making sure you’re you’re learning and you can also glean from all of these people. Everybody you meet, whether you hire them or not knows something you probably don’t know. So pay attention and, you know, grab that low hanging fruit. It’s going to help you in the long run and part of knowing is going to help you also negotiate to know, okay, are you giving me retail prices or are you giving me trade prices? Because I’m not a retail customer. I’m going to be a repeat trade customer. I know what things cost and you can do better on your labor. Yeah. I’m not just, you know, a residential person down the street.
And that also helps you build that network of guys. Yeah. People that you really continually rely on.
Yeah. And it will help you determine does this painter as an example serve trade clients or are they primarily looking for the homeowner? Yeah. The mass market client, which is fine. If that’s who they serve, that’s who they serve. It’s not the right relationship for you and being able to weed that out early. That’s that whole communication getting that clear expectation of knowing like, hey, this is what I expect to pay. This is the deliverable I expect. Is that something you can actually do?
Yeah. And again, also goes back to the guy that I know I can rely on like, hey, look, this isn’t the huge job. I got just a small piece that I need repaired. I know you can come take care of it. You will come take care of it, but you also know that I’m going to call you when I have that next big, big piece. So I think that’s perfect on moving into that kind of that next point of like maintaining these relationships. How, how is an investor or designer? Are you maintaining these so that you have these people to call? You know, you know, again, being able to say, hey, I’ve got the small job and that can translate into more bigger jobs. You know, them knowing that you’re a repeat person and you’re consistent in how, how we work together, how we communicate, how we pay that goes a long way. And then the mutual respect that you build between each of you.
Yeah, like valuing what they actually bring to the table and not taking it personal. You know, like we always say it’s how you finish. It’s not how you, not how you start. And that, that couldn’t be more true for construction and, you know, doing like big cohesive trade stuff because it’s going to get messy. It’s going to get real messy in the middle and it’s a stressful process and people, you know, expectations can get a little disoriented, especially at the end. So how you finish, yeah, how you finished matters. And that’s true with those relationship partners too, because you might, you might have a heated conversation at one point or you might have to correct somebody that’s not doing whatever you want them to do or you expect of the services you’ve hired them to do, but it’s not personal. It’s not personal. It’s business and how you finish matters.
Yeah. I mean, it’s some of those conversations. It’s, hey, I’ve hired you to do it this way, like you said, and that’s not what you’re doing. So let’s get it fixed. Let’s get it taken care of corrected now and we can continue to move forward.
And we’ve navigated that as partners, business partners, but also as a married couple where, you know, sometimes it’s like Justin knows I can’t deliver that because it’s going to come across totally different from a woman and it’s going to seem more emotionally charged than it really is. So sometimes Justin knows the fullness of how I think or feel about the situation, but he’s going to execute it better than I am. And it doesn’t even have to be that way in a mirror, you know, if you’re not married and you’re working with somebody, but like knowing your strengths and knowing, knowing your own weaknesses, yeah, or shortcomings. Like if I say this, it’s going to have a totally different outcome. So you should probably say this because I might run this guy off.
But also in the same on that same context of, you know, I know I’ve been guilty of trying to give somebody a little bit too many or if you too many chances and you’re like, come on, we got to get this done. Right. This guy’s not cutting it.
Yeah. If you’re a little more inclined to, you know, give people the benefit of the doubt or, oh, he just keeps having all these problems. Let’s just give him a more chance. It’s like, yeah, well, not today. So we’ll give you one more chance maybe on the next project when you can prove yourself again. But for this one, you’re done. We’ve got to move on being able to again, tap back into that Rolodex, get the wrong people out, get the right people in and have enough fluid movement as you continue to build that you can keep going.
Yeah, brings up a good point. Like sometimes just because you’ve got this tradesmen in there and not every job is going to go just perfect smoothly. Some things happen. I mean, life happens and there are times where yet somebody just has something that’s coming up. And it is starting to kind of affect maybe the quality and maybe they just don’t need to be the right person for that job and you need to bring somebody else in. That doesn’t mean that they’re gone. They’re done. They’re never going to work for you again necessarily. And that’s where I think sometimes that grace comes in of like allowing life, but this is also our business and we have to move forward and they have to understand that, but just because they’re removed off this job doesn’t mean I’m not going to bring them back for another job down the road when some when things have cleared up and you know, like you said, you’ve proved you prove yourself on the next one and we go on.
Yeah, I mean, it’s such a small industry really as an investor and it really seems like most industries function this way, but we’ve been burned by tradesmen who think, oh, we’ll never see you again or I don’t know what they think, but point being that’s sort of the the projection, right? Of like, oh, I’m not actually going to come and clean up this last little bit that I should instead I’m going to run off and they think that’s not going to taint them, but it will and as something as an investor, you have to keep in mind to when things don’t go necessarily the way you want it, like how you finished matters and it doesn’t have to be the end all be all if you have to make an adjustment.
And so remember sometimes that finishing like when, you know, I’ve had I’ve had several business relationships over the years, you know, back into my corporate where it’s like this job is just not going well and have, you know, having that conversation of look that this one’s not working. I know you’re trying. I can see that, but this is not working. We’ve got to make a change and then, you know, come back on another project and it’s like, hey, you remember last time that we worked together, we had these issues. If we got we’ve got that taken care of, right? And then that next that next job, they got just completely knocked it out of the park. They couldn’t ask for a better outcome and it’s like, yeah, okay, so we had an issue then, okay, that’s definitely in the past and look now we’re moving, we’re rolling.
Yeah. And as the investor too, you have to really continue to grow and develop and communicating your expectation. If you’re going to, if you’re going to be able to scale around building a strong teams because you know, we’ve seen this on design side of things and investing where we can’t read your mind and people can’t read our mind. Like you have to be able to have that expectation clear upfront so that you can actually collaborate and work together because if not, you’re just going to end up frustrated and no one’s ever going to be able to make you happy anyways and you know, good luck trying to build a team with that narrative from a scaling perspective. We’ve seen investors who you know, have have told us, oh, it’s just it’s hard to do this full time. It’s hard to break into this full time and a lot of that boils down to scale, scalability because you’re
You’re relying on a very small pool of people to do everything for you all the
Time and you’re not learning enough along the way like you might be relying too heavily on one contractor to manage the whole thing to manage all the crews and then you become subject to you know, their timeline, their business structure. And yeah, I would, I would agree. It’s probably really hard to scale that way. But if you really want to scale your network so that you can take on more projects and have better control over that ROI and everything that comes along with the timeline of the project, then you know, building that Rolodex, maintaining the good relationships, finishing strong, you know, if things don’t work out for this project, it’s not the end all we all. Is there something we can do in the future together where we can continue to grow?
I guess trying to wrap that up a lot. It seems like a lot of things that you have to do as an investor. You’ve got to you’ve got to kind of be able to understand or know a lot about everything that you’re doing, but you’ve also got to know who to call and when to call or how many contacts do I have and when do I call who and how do I keep this guy happy? Because he wants all the work, but I can’t give him all the work. You know, the more clear that you are with whomever you’re working with, whatever trade or designer or client, then the better off you’re going to wind up being because you can be clear. You’ve the expectations are set.
And I don’t know if we’ve highlighted enough, but it’s just as you’re talking, you know, the need for a mentor in your network is key. Everyone should have somebody who has gone before you, whatever you’re trying to achieve. You know, an investor who’s wiser than you or a builder who knows more than you or, you know, whatever your mentor looks like, you should have that person that you could call within your network.
I don’t think he’s just one agree
Because they are going to help multiply that effort of establishing you’re a good network and having someone to, you know, confide in so to speak when things maybe come that you’re not expecting, which is really what this podcast is all about. This is like part of your Rolex of network where you can come and hear real time, what it’s like in the space and what we really go through and what we’ve learned that we can then help point you guide you in a direction that, you know, you can take an actionable step for your success. But yeah, I mean, we have a great mentor who was a builder. We’ve got lots of real estate investing mentors who we glean from and we’ve learned tremendous things from and continue to learn.
And we also have our, you know, along with the builders and the investors, we have trades people that we continually learn from or can glean things off of so that we can better be equipped for that next project that next flip or that next design client and how to accomplish whatever goal, right?
And that is essential for scalability.
You’ve got to maintain those relationships and it doesn’t mean necessarily that you’re always, this is the guy that gets the work, but it’s, or
That you’re always going to see eye to eye. Yeah. Yeah.
Just totally okay. True. But it’s those relationships are built on a foundation of trust. They’re built on a mutual respect. I listened to what you have to say. I hear you. I may not always agree with what you’re saying or I may have a question and ask to look at something differently. And yes, we’ve had some of those hard conversations with each of them, but we work, we work through that, continue to work forward and grow and learn all of us. Yeah.
So with that, just remember, you’re not just hiring labor. If you view people as purely labor, you’re never going to build long-lasting relationships. You’re hiring experts in their trade and you’re, you’re building a collaborative team that’s going to make you more successful. And that is how your network will grow and those relationships will flourish. So if you like what you heard today, you feel motivated to build your team, make sure you have a mentor apart from us and follow along, subscribe if you haven’t already because we’re, we have so much more content we’ll be sharing every week.
So hit the like button, follow, subscribe, check us out on social media and we look forward to seeing you guys next time. Thanks for joining.
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